Just done my annual St John Ambulance first aid refresher...the directions now are to remove a biker's helmet if they are non-responsive (you can't check their breathing or give them mouth-to-mouth without taking it off). The emphasis (obviously) is to preserve life first - there's no point trying not to cause an injury if the person is going to die.
Thoughts?
Alive is better than dead 99% of the time.
Did they demonstrate a 'safest method' to remove a helmet ?
No demonstrations as it was a refresher for first aid at work (mostly offices etc, slips trips etc), but it came up as part of the discussion on changes to the way things are done. Quite possibly a vid on their website though.
It's amazing how much changes over the years!
The new Shoei's have emergency tabs on the bottom of the inside padding that allow it to be pulled out in an accident to allow safer helmet removal. Very clever I thought.
Saw that the other day while eyeing up a new lid Emma, it does look a very good system.
Quote from: Nat on October 10, 2014, 01:37:15 PM
Just done my annual St John Ambulance first aid refresher...the directions now are to remove a biker's helmet if they are non-responsive (you can't check their breathing or give them mouth-to-mouth without taking it off). The emphasis (obviously) is to preserve life first - there's no point trying not to cause an injury if the person is going to die.
Thoughts?
First aid practice always ebbs and flows of do's and don'ts. I don't think it was very long ago they removed the breathing part of the CPR!
On the basis that you're giving CPR to non breathing / no pulse motorbike accident you really are dealing with the last 0.1% of people that might survive.... probably even less when it comes to surviving with any quality of life.
If you start teaching that - I'd suggest the amount of people that wrongly take off a helmet (and worsen a neck / head injury) and harm that causes is likely to far outweigh the potential benefit of those that are found all-but dead and are going to be saved by a first aider.
I don't know what I'd do if i came across the situation myself. If defo no pulse then I'd consider it if I knew the ambulance was going to be more than a few minutes.
I did the biker down first on scene workshop earlier this year with Glos fire brigade and the think bike scheme. The training was
1) Dial 999 (you will only be able to maintain 10 - 12 minutes max of CPR)
2) Check for breathing, if none acquire a second body to help remove the lid
3)start CPR, don't bother with the breathing.
There was no alternative training for removing a lid single handedly, but between watching someone die in front of you or removing the lid, you would likely take the chance.
I did the lid removal training with (2 people)
Quote from: ash on October 10, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
I did the biker down first on scene workshop earlier this year with Glos fire brigade and the think bike scheme. The training was
1) Dial 999 (you will only be able to maintain 10 - 12 minutes max of CPR)
2) Check for breathing, if none acquire a second body to help remove the lid
3)start CPR, don't bother with the breathing.
There was no alternative training for removing a lid single handedly, but between watching someone die in front of you or removing the lid, you would likely take the chance.
I did the lid removal training with (2 people)
why remove the lid if you're not doing the breathing. Surely if only doing chest compression you'd just check for a pulse (no need to remove lid) then fire away?
The biker down course I did with Kent Fire and Rescue (Jim and his team started this all of and now it's rolling out to other areas) did give instruction on how to remove the helmet safely. We all had a go and it can be done safely. However there are so many conflicting arguments over it, you are likely to get grief from those who believe that the helmet should stay on. Difficult to call
OK, heres a question for everyone one of us on here....
Who has been 1st on scene of a bike smash / crash ?
If so, how did you handle the situation, and do you feel you could benefit from some/further training ?
I was in this situation a few years ago when my mate and I hit that tractor. For one, I was in shock myself although relatively unscathed. My mate was just laying there unable to do out but groan. I undid his strap and zip on his leathers to cool him down as it was quite warm. Tried to remove his gloves but even though he couldn't speak you could tell he was in immense pain so I left them on.
Seeing blood come from his mouth, nose and eyes there was no way in hell I was going to try and remove his lid. Suppose I had and he died, could it or would someone point the finger of his death due to me doing so.
As it is he suffered a fair bit of brain damage, maybe keeping the lid on suppressed the swelling :undecided:
Quote from: Gilby1OHNOYOUDIDN'T on October 10, 2014, 04:27:41 PM
Quote from: ash on October 10, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
I did the biker down first on scene workshop earlier this year with Glos fire brigade and the think bike scheme. The training was
1) Dial 999 (you will only be able to maintain 10 - 12 minutes max of CPR)
2) Check for breathing, if none acquire a second body to help remove the lid
3)start CPR, don't bother with the breathing.
There was no alternative training for removing a lid single handedly, but between watching someone die in front of you or removing the lid, you would likely take the chance.
I did the lid removal training with (2 people)
why remove the lid if you're not doing the breathing. Surely if only doing chest compression you'd just check for a pulse (no need to remove lid) then fire away?
They argued that chest compressions did have value in getting some air into the lungs, but not if the airway is obstructed. That is why it was important to remove the lid before you start.
There is a fair bit of oxygen in the body anyway, but useless if it isn't being moved around.
You cannot restart a stopped heart with CPR, only a defibrillator so if you don't call for an ambulance before you start cpr, they will die anyway when you run out of energy, and once you start, you cannot stop until they turn up if you want to try and keep them alive.
We get trained in Racesafe (bike marshal team) to scoop a rider on a stretcher as well as remove a helmet as safely as possible.
The likelyhood of us removing a helmet ourselves is slim due to a medic being on each corner of a track. But just in case we are trained. It would only be removed should blood be coming out of the mouth or airways blocked by vomit or other means.
Ive never had to do it yet.
Saying that for MotoGP, since the Simoncelli incident, if a rider is unconscious we are not to move them no matter what. We must wait for the motogp medical car/team to arrive and deal with it.
A Mate binned it in Germany (B500) , over a kerb and up the embankment into the undergrowth .
He was bleeding badly from a severe cut under his nose, I had no hesitation on removing his helmet carefully as my overriding instinct was to enable him to breath.
The fear was that he would choke on his own blood.
A B C, airway breathing circulation.
Anyhow airlifted to hospital and a month later returned home , lives to tell the tale :shocked:
<Shudder>