I was explaining my view that I feel Rossi is the GOAT not just because of the number of titles he's won and what he's brought to the sport in terms of popularity etc, but I consider him to have transcended the greatest progression in motorcycle technology ever.
Le Gavoir is of the opinion that the current bikes are harder than anything that has come before to ride.
Now, he's spent years in the GP paddock, so knows a thing or two, so I'm not going to dismiss his claim. And whilst I've raced 250's and small and high capacity 4 strokes, my qualifications are more GCSE level than masters degree, considering I've never even ridden a bike with TC, let alone raced one........ but I can't see how or why a bike with amazing power which is controlled by supercomputers can be harder to ride than a bike with 3/4 the power, lighter, with no electronic aids and a hair trigger?????
Discuss.....
answers with more content than "he's/you're talking shit" welcomed...... cos I'm afraid that's all I managed with Gav...... not my most robust argument, I'll admit.
Rossi has proven he can ride 125,250,500cc smokers, 990cc with minimal aids, 800cc corner speed kings with a few more aids, and the newer 1000cc monsters with lots of aids to a huge level of success - I'm not so sure there is anyone else in the history of motorcycling who can claim the same thing.
He's the GOAT - the end.
This would be the 34 yearold Rossi who when placed on competative bikes still manages to finish in the top percentile of his class at nearly every race, i believe his track record cements him as an ultimate Moto Gp legend.
are the bikes harder to ride ? i would say no but would flip it by saying with all the electronic trickery more technical ability & understanding is now needed, how to make TC work the best for you, how to get LC to suit your style etc
Does riding a bike with TC and other gizmos mean you ride past what is naturally instinctive?
If so then I can see why people my see them as "harder to ride"
Rossi on a bike with no TC and using the feel of the machine to know the limit is a skill he has mastered. Then chuck him on a bike where you can pin the throttle wide open mid corner because the electronics will allow it , accelerating at a point where on a bike with no TC will send you skywards (Pedrosa crash) for a "old school rider", that's got to be a difficult switch
I assume moto2 has a similar electronic programing? If so Marquez's performances on the same machinery cannot be equally compared to Rossi because he has developed his riding style based on relying on electronics rather than just instinct.
He's a goofy faced clown that has lucked on to all the best bikes and when faced with an actual challenge at Ducati ran away with his tail between his legs.
and no, i'm not serious. he's the goat.
/thread.
:moto:
Your both right...
They need to be ridden differently to extract 100% from them. Some riders can't adjust their style, technique to accommodate the differences of the platform in question.
So maybe the more recent advancements in technology prevent Rossi from winning these days ?
I do believe he is the goat. His record and attitude are second to none.
Until the post Valencia 2010 test day even I could have been persuaded that he was...
Ago, Hailwood, Roberts Snr, Spencer, Rainey, Doohan, Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo - it's difficult to compare riders from different eras or riders who competed against each other at different times in their respective careers but even against that list, he's be near the very top.
I've always been a Rossi fan and do think that he has earned his title from the ground up, like everyone knows the 125's, 500's etc were all the basic training and his foothold in the sport. Now he's on what has become his pedastle whereas the likes of Marquez are moulded into the new bikes where they have all the aids to start with so they learn with these. Put them on a standard road bike with no aids and say right race each other round this track and it would e clear who has ridden without aids. On the other hand I'm not dismissing that Marquez can ride, put any of us on his bike and I'm sure we would be in a different comfort zone so each side has a stake but it still doesn't defeat the title that Rossi is the goat.
Marquez has only ridden with TC etc for this season - he did pretty well without them in 125 and Moto2.
He is certainly the greatest "package" of all time, without question
Difficult to compare in different era's I know
Yes the media have "hyped" him up, thats what they like to do, just as they like to slate someone
He'll get my vote
Rob
Dan - you are right.
He's the GOAT in my opinion. My view is obviously skewed because he is the superstar of my generation. But his achievements in terms of going across all the types of bikes adds to that GOAT claim. His personality and what he has done for the sport add further. I don't know (or can't think) of anyone that comes close in terms of the whole package.
I think others have shone as bright as him (or nearly as bright) in individual areas.... championship winning machines like Ago or Doohan, speed machines like Stoner, characters like Sheene? But noone that has done on the whole what he has done and for so long - I'm not sure there can be any question that he is the GOAT!
As for the bikes I don't know and will never know. What I do think is that generally the fastest rider / driver of their day would probably be the fastest on any machinery..... it's the transition that can mess things up. Even immortals like Rossi are going to have to find something extra to keep up with changes in machinery - especially against those that have been bred on the new kit. So in that sense the bike will be harder to ride for Rossi than the younger guys?
As for Gav's thoughts that the bikes are actually harder to ride I can only think that they are so good that to ride the last 0.5% needed to be faster than the rest is increasingly difficult. i.e. the line between being as fast as everyone else or alien fast is so large because the bike takes care of most of the 'going as fast as everyone else bit'? Also I guess they are much harder to set up properly? But just thinking out loud really.
When Lorenzo was asked who the greatest was, Hailwood or Ago, he answered 'Valentino'.... I'll take his opinion as an expert one.
Dani at Aragon proved how much work the bike does these days. On the 500's, the rider had to stop it doing that himself, on every corner, at every race.
Rossi isn't winning anymore because he's 34 years old. And he lost two years at Ducati and probably ended up a worse rider than he started there. If he was 5 or 6 years younger he'd be able to come back from it but he's just getting older. And the Yamaha is struggling a bit this year too which obviously doesn't help.
Quote from: David w on October 16, 2013, 08:07:14 PM
Rossi isn't winning anymore because he's 34 years old. And he lost two years at Ducati and probably ended up a worse rider than he started there. If he was 5 or 6 years younger he'd be able to come back from it but he's just getting older. And the Yamaha is struggling a bit this year too which obviously doesn't help.
+1... also, in comparison with Lorenzo (who was as fast as Rossi by the time Rossi broke his leg), Rossi has spent 2 years dicking around on a shit bike whilst Lorenzo has spent that time perfecting the ability to ride an entire race at inch perfect blistering pace getting better and better in my opinion. I think we have found out that Lorenzo has a bit more to give / risk now that Marquez has turned up but he's certainly spent the last 2 years riding perfecting the art of riding a bloody quick bike at 99.9% all race long.
Hard for Rossi at 34 to maintain his pace (which he might well have done?) but impossible surely for him to keep up with the development / adaptation of his own skills at the pace that Lorenzo (at perfect age and with near perfect machinery) will have been developing his!
Would the current MotoGP class bikes be unrideable without the electronic aids? My thinking is like the statement that the (Eurofighter I think?) was unflyable without the computers due to being too unstable?
Correct - Typhoon is designed unstable as it makes it incredibly manoeuvrable.
Without the fly by wire computers (quad redundancy) it would just fall out of the sky...
Quote from: PJ on October 16, 2013, 08:37:56 PM
Would the current MotoGP class bikes be unrideable without the electronic aids? My thinking is like the statement that the (Eurofighter I think?) was unflyable without the computers due to being too unstable?
Probably not un-rideable.... but a current bike with the TC etc turned off would be nowhere near as fast as a bike designed to operate without the gizmos in the first place. N.B. That comment doesn't apply if you turn the electrics off at a point undisclosed to the rider!!
Can't remember who said it on here but a relevant point was that it's a moot point in as much as the bikes wouldn't finish a race in any case because the computer is required to stop you spanking all your fuel in the first 10 laps!
Now that ones cleared up...
Messi or Pele?
:rofl:
Quote from: J3Math on October 16, 2013, 10:50:45 PM
Now that ones cleared up...
Messi or Pele?
:rofl:
Best - the other two don't come close....
Diego............
gazza.
/thread
(we are talking about useless wastes of space footballists, right?)
Quote from: PJ on October 16, 2013, 08:37:56 PM
Would the current MotoGP class bikes be unrideable without the electronic aids? My thinking is like the statement that the (Eurofighter I think?) was unflyable without the computers due to being too unstable?
They'd be close to unrideable, and the Typhoon analogy isn't far off. The bikes have very erratic and peaky torque curves to get the last nth of fuel economy out of them. The computers smooth this out by making constant corrections to the fuelling and butterflies so that it appears smooth to the rider. They call it Torque-by-wire.
Quote from: J3Math on October 16, 2013, 10:50:45 PM
Now that ones cleared up...
Messi or Pele?
:rofl:
Peter Crouch :bootyshake:
Rob
To me Rossi is a phenomenal rider and done wonders for the sport, but GOAT, I'm not convinced, to me for someone to have that title then they must have done something in more than one league so his moto gp career is one, and if he had lifted either a wsbk out iom tt victory as well then I'd be more likely to agree.
Moto GP tweeted this so I thought I would stick it up.
http://youtu.be/JyK9BcgGS64
Quote from: captain sensible on October 17, 2013, 12:25:42 PM
To me Rossi is a phenomenal rider and done wonders for the sport, but GOAT, I'm not convinced, to me for someone to have that title then they must have done something in more than one league so his moto gp career is one, and if he had lifted either a wsbk out iom tt victory as well then I'd be more likely to agree.
WSB or IoM? Seriously? Nine World Championships on five different bike formats and you want to see him in Sunday League racing? :shocked:
Captain sensible has a point.... he may be the GOAT in moto-gp but not the GOAT of motorcycle racing..... I'm certainly not calling gp riders wimps, but they dont have the levels of bravery insanity of the road racers......
I think John Surtees needs a mention here... 7 GP championships AND 1 in Formula one, oh and the first to win the senior TT three times in a row!
I would have been interested to see Rossi in a ferrari as was rumoured a few years ago, shame it will never happen!
Road racing is a long way short of GP racing. It seems to me to be where riders go that can't quite make it on proper racetracks.
And if you parachuted Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo, etc into WSB at the top of their games they'd walk it. I was going to say Dani, but he'd probably get hit by a meteor shower....
Quote from: David w on October 17, 2013, 01:25:54 PM
Road racing is a long way short of GP racing. It seems to me to be where riders go that can't quite make it on proper racetracks.
I think that might be a little harsh ;) It doesn't take more skill to be a road racer no, but it certainly takes more bravery which I think is part of being a great racer. Could Rossi blitz the TT if he entered, almost certainly, would he risk it? no way! WSB though, I agree entirely......
He'd be closer round the TT than a TT racer would be to him around a proper track ;)
They asked DJ how he thought MotoGP riders would get on at the TT..........he said he wouldn't see which way they went.
Josh Brookes is a good example - top 5 rider in what compared to previous years is a weak BSB championship talent wise, did a 127mph lap during his first visit.
As far as WSBK goes, I think someone like Nicky Hayden would walk it with the right bike let alone the real top talents.
Quote from: Gobert on October 17, 2013, 03:00:02 PM
As far as WSBK goes, I think someone like Nicky Hayden would walk it with the right bike let alone the real top talents.
Hayden has made his decision for 2014...stay in the big class picking up a wage as an "also ran"...which is no real change from what he has being doing at Ducati.
https://twitter.com/NickyHayden/status/390772293737406464/photo/1
Quote from: David w on October 16, 2013, 08:07:14 PM
When Lorenzo was asked who the greatest was, Hailwood or Ago, he answered 'Valentino'.... I'll take his opinion as an expert one.
Dani at Aragon proved how much work the bike does these days. On the 500's, the rider had to stop it doing that himself, on every corner, at every race.
Rossi isn't winning anymore because he's 34 years old. And he lost two years at Ducati and probably ended up a worse rider than he started there. If he was 5 or 6 years younger he'd be able to come back from it but he's just getting older. And the Yamaha is struggling a bit this year too which obviously doesn't help.
That and maybe he still has the demons in his head from hitting Marco. That surely must be in his mind.
Takes a lot to go out there and do what he does after that incident.
He is the GOAT. :moto:
Adaptability makes a great rider into a legend.
In my opinion rider aids are making riders less adaptable.
A single thing failing causes an off......really.....adapt overcome ride around issues thats a rider
In my view Rossi is the GOAT but this is not just about his success as a rider he is an ad mans dream, he is always up for a laugh, he just seems to be one of those really nice guys.
There is one thing saying he is the GOAT, only time will tell, but I bet you in 100 years time they will still be talking about him, could the same be said for pedrosa......... Rossi will go down in history, that's why he is the GOAT.... And at his age he is still embarrassing some of the younger riders
Quote from: Steve R1 on October 18, 2013, 06:23:09 AM
In my view Rossi is the GOAT but this is not just about his success as a rider he is an ad mans dream, he is always up for a laugh, he just seems to be one of those really nice guys.
There is one thing saying he is the GOAT, only time will tell, but I bet you in 100 years time they will still be talking about him, could the same be said for pedrosa......... Rossi will go down in history, that's why he is the GOAT.... And at his age he is still embarrassing some of the younger riders
absolutely spot on :azn:
QuoteA single thing failing causes an off......really.....adapt overcome ride around issues thats a rider
But to be fair, it's a bit tricky "riding around" thinking you've got traction control but then suddenly and unexpectedly not having!
Quote from: Bullet on October 17, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
Captain sensible has a point.... he may be the GOAT in moto-gp but not the GOAT of motorcycle racing..... I'm certainly not calling gp riders wimps, but they dont have the levels of bravery insanity of the road racers......
I think John Surtees needs a mention here... 7 GP championships AND 1 in Formula one, oh and the first to win the senior TT three times in a row!
I would have been interested to see Rossi in a ferrari as was rumoured a few years ago, shame it will never happen!
I see what you're saying but MotoGP IS motorcycle racing.... it is the pinnacle where the best go to be measured. Ayrton Senna never won a BTC or a DMT championship but I don't think that sullies his record!
As for road racing it's just a different ball game, in the same was as motox would be. Similar skill set but if you organised a round robin of motorcycle events then Rossi would wipe the floor with JMcG etc etc.
Surtees would be a shoe-in for the GOAT leaderboard but I have no idea what he brought to the table in terms of personality and what he gave to motorcycle racing - that's a big part of the Rossi legacy!
Quote from: tucola on October 18, 2013, 09:27:02 AM
QuoteA single thing failing causes an off......really.....adapt overcome ride around issues thats a rider
But to be fair, it's a bit tricky "riding around" thinking you've got traction control but then suddenly and unexpectedly not having!
Agreed. But it shows he is snapping the throttle open...unlike mr rossi i suspect
I think these days they all pretty much nail the throttle and let the electronics sort the job out.
Quote from: David w on October 19, 2013, 09:36:30 PM
I think these days they all pretty much nail the throttle and let the electronics sort the job out.
Sounds like a piss of piece, here hold me beer and watch this
:grin:
Quote from: Coxy on October 21, 2013, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: David w on October 19, 2013, 09:36:30 PM
I think these days they all pretty much nail the throttle and let the electronics sort the job out.
Sounds like a piss of piece, here hold me beer and watch this
Let me know when -- I'll pre-order the ambulance :rofl: