grounded engine numbers legallity?

[PJ]

its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

Seems legit.

[Carbon_ZX6R]

its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

Seems legit.

I mean grounded off its not lightly done I didn't mean parts...

[PJ]

its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

Seems legit.
I mean grounded off its not lightly done I didn't mean parts...

That's what I was referring to. Whoever ground it off made damn sure noone could ever find out the original number....

[T.C]

I was thinking about that but its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

It is quite surprising how deep engine numbers are punched into the engine casings.  I have seen many where I thought it would be unrecoverable, but surprisingly they have managed to bring it up.

It might also mitigate any awkward questions asked.  Few people check engine numbers when buying secondhand, and even then if it has been a legitimate engine change the numbers may not match as people often forget or don't bother to get the V5 amended.

[Carbon_ZX6R]

its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

Seems legit.
I mean grounded off its not lightly done I didn't mean parts...

That's what I was referring to. Whoever ground it off made damn sure noone could ever find out the original number....

ah right , yeah im inclinded to agree but to be fair if your going to remove them in the first place your want to do a proper job of it I guess 

[Carbon_ZX6R]

I was thinking about that but its really had a lot taken off it I doubt anything could be recovered if im honest

It is quite surprising how deep engine numbers are punched into the engine casings.  I have seen many where I thought it would be unrecoverable, but surprisingly they have managed to bring it up.

It might also mitigate any awkward questions asked.  Few people check engine numbers when buying secondhand, and even then if it has been a legitimate engine change the numbers may not match as people often forget or don't bother to get the V5 amended.

ill look into it t.c but to me it looks completely smooth

[mc101]

When you say engine number ground off are you sure ?

If the motor has had the cases replaced (gearbox failure, output shaft failure etc) a new motor will come as a blank with only the factory case grinding on it where a production engine number would usually be stamped.  Blank cases are never stamped fwiw.

[Gilby104]

IIRC from a little while ago, where Kent police were checking lots of bikes (mainly at trackdays, but that to do with large numbers in a small location) for VINs and engine numbers etc.  They gave the responsability for the individual to prove that any bike that had either mismatched or missing numbers, had done so legally, otherwise the issued a confiscation order and impounded anything that couldn't be proved.

In short .... if you can't prove a legal reason for having mismatched or missing numbers, then you lose the bike, and become part of an investigation into bike theft and ringing.

One more thing, there is no need to tamper with an engine number at all whatsoever.  Every block has a number stamped from the factory, so even if it's had a legitimate engine change there should be a number present.  The only time a number gets removed from the block is when someone is trying to alter it's identity illegally.

Finally, if she sells up and is asked (even causally) any questions that relate to the engine and bike in any way, she has to by law be truthful about the lack of numbers.

There you have it.

I don't see any good reason why a nearly new bike like that has had the engine number ground off. If the rest of the bike is legit then I can only imagine it's a dodgy engine from a nicked bike (how it got there or why it's there actually seems pretty irrelevant if Neil is right.... the fact you don't know is the problem).

Let's say it's 95% likely that the engine is dodgy and, if it is, the bike will be seized if spotted by the authorities.

Your friends fear is that the bike will be seized.

There is no point in masking the number. Anyone that is capable of seizing it will know as soon as they see it. And then you're in the sh1t for fraud.

There is a 95% chance that if you do further investigation then you'll find out for certain it's dodgy. Then you're in the sh1t for keeping it quiet (or increasing your likelihood of getting found out). You're inviting the thing you fear onto your doorstep.

If your main concern is to avoid having the bike seized, your only option is to keep absolutely quiet and use / sell the bike as you found it and forget you ever noticed the number. this option requires you to ignore your morals and may land you in the sh1t with plod.

If you want to take the more moral / legally safer stance then you can either a) pay for an investigation b) go to the authorities or c) go back to the seller (with or without the authorities) and make it their problem again. I'd suggest all of the moral options come at a potentially increased financial risk.

A middle ground would be to sell the bike on but be completely straight about the numbers - but you're going to lose out financially to the person who knows the engine if probably dodgy and legally, selling it on knowing it was probably dodgy there may be comeuppance. But at least you're not selling on a ringer without the buyer knowing what they are getting into.   

I don't see any option where you will get rid of both the financial and the moral / legal risk. Watching you try is quite frustrating. I'd tell your friend she can choose one or the other.

[Gilby104]

When you say engine number ground off are you sure ?

If the motor has had the cases replaced (gearbox failure, output shaft failure etc) a new motor will come as a blank with only the factory case grinding on it where a production engine number would usually be stamped.  Blank cases are never stamped fwiw.

uummmmmm..... or that   

[Carbon_ZX6R]

When you say engine number ground off are you sure ?

If the motor has had the cases replaced (gearbox failure, output shaft failure etc) a new motor will come as a blank with only the factory case grinding on it where a production engine number would usually be stamped.  Blank cases are never stamped fwiw.

id say so its just a super shiny bit

[Carbon_ZX6R]

IIRC from a little while ago, where Kent police were checking lots of bikes (mainly at trackdays, but that to do with large numbers in a small location) for VINs and engine numbers etc.  They gave the responsability for the individual to prove that any bike that had either mismatched or missing numbers, had done so legally, otherwise the issued a confiscation order and impounded anything that couldn't be proved.

In short .... if you can't prove a legal reason for having mismatched or missing numbers, then you lose the bike, and become part of an investigation into bike theft and ringing.

One more thing, there is no need to tamper with an engine number at all whatsoever.  Every block has a number stamped from the factory, so even if it's had a legitimate engine change there should be a number present.  The only time a number gets removed from the block is when someone is trying to alter it's identity illegally.

Finally, if she sells up and is asked (even causally) any questions that relate to the engine and bike in any way, she has to by law be truthful about the lack of numbers.

There you have it.

I don't see any good reason why a nearly new bike like that has had the engine number ground off. If the rest of the bike is legit then I can only imagine it's a dodgy engine from a nicked bike (how it got there or why it's there actually seems pretty irrelevant if Neil is right.... the fact you don't know is the problem).

Let's say it's 95% likely that the engine is dodgy and, if it is, the bike will be seized if spotted by the authorities.

Your friends fear is that the bike will be seized.

There is no point in masking the number. Anyone that is capable of seizing it will know as soon as they see it. And then you're in the sh1t for fraud.

There is a 95% chance that if you do further investigation then you'll find out for certain it's dodgy. Then you're in the sh1t for keeping it quiet (or increasing your likelihood of getting found out). You're inviting the thing you fear onto your doorstep.

If your main concern is to avoid having the bike seized, your only option is to keep absolutely quiet and use / sell the bike as you found it and forget you ever noticed the number. this option requires you to ignore your morals and may land you in the sh1t with plod.

If you want to take the more moral / legally safer stance then you can either a) pay for an investigation b) go to the authorities or c) go back to the seller (with or without the authorities) and make it their problem again. I'd suggest all of the moral options come at a potentially increased financial risk.

A middle ground would be to sell the bike on but be completely straight about the numbers - but you're going to lose out financially to the person who knows the engine if probably dodgy and legally, selling it on knowing it was probably dodgy there may be comeuppance. But at least you're not selling on a ringer without the buyer knowing what they are getting into.   

I don't see any option where you will get rid of both the financial and the moral / legal risk. Watching you try is quite frustrating. I'd tell your friend she can choose one or the other.

ill let her know , i didn't think that was the case as per this  a while back,

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2009/january/jan0809-thieves-given-back-stolen-bikes/

[Millhouse]

Do you, or anyone you know, ever do anything that doesn't involve buying hookey gear??!

[Carbon_ZX6R]

Do you, or anyone you know, ever do anything that doesn't involve buying hookey gear??!

Nothing hooky about my bikes thank you very much! 

[Maddog]

Its probably of no use now but i always check the vin/engine number against a V5 before i buy a vehicle after being stung on an Astra SRI when i was a boy.

Plod need reasonable grounds to suspect an item is stolen. If they do, its down to the owner to provide evidence to prove it isnt stolen. The engine has no number.....anyone with half a brain knows there is really only 1 reason why its not there. I know she didnt know about the lack of numbers when she brought it but id say she would struggle to convince a copper unless she has a great rack 

If any half decent copper stops her on it theres a chance she will get nicked for handling stolen goods and have the bike seized.

Covering it up/altering it shows some form of intent so i would be really careful.

[terry950sm]

I love you carbon. Your post always bring a smile to my face. What would this place be without you.