Little debate between me and Gavin-san

[Lord Danoir the first]

I was explaining my view that I feel Rossi is the GOAT not just because of the number of titles he's won and what he's brought to the sport in terms of popularity etc, but I consider him to have transcended the greatest progression in motorcycle technology ever.

Le Gavoir is of the opinion that the current bikes are harder than anything that has come before to ride.

Now, he's spent years in the GP paddock, so knows a thing or two, so I'm not going to dismiss his claim. And whilst I've raced 250's and small and high capacity 4 strokes, my qualifications are more GCSE level than masters degree, considering I've never even ridden a bike with TC, let alone raced one........ but I can't see how or why a bike with amazing power which is controlled by supercomputers can be harder to ride than a bike with 3/4 the power, lighter, with no electronic aids and a hair trigger?????

Discuss.....

answers with more content than "he's/you're talking shit" welcomed...... cos I'm afraid that's all I managed with Gav...... not my most robust argument, I'll admit.

[MOzZereLLa]

Rossi has proven he can ride 125,250,500cc smokers, 990cc with minimal aids, 800cc corner speed kings with a few more aids, and the newer 1000cc monsters with lots of aids to a huge level of success - I'm not so sure there is anyone else in the history of motorcycling who can claim the same thing.

He's the GOAT - the end.

[Choowonit]

This would be the 34 yearold Rossi who when placed on competative bikes still manages to finish in the top percentile of his class at nearly every race, i believe his track record cements him as an ultimate Moto Gp legend.

are the bikes harder to ride ? i would say no but would flip it by saying with all the electronic trickery more technical ability & understanding is now needed, how to make TC work the best for you, how to get LC to suit your style etc

[mito]

Does riding a bike with TC and other gizmos mean you ride past what is naturally instinctive?

If so then I can see why people my see them as "harder to ride"

Rossi on a bike with no TC and using the feel of the machine to know the limit is a skill he has mastered. Then chuck him on a bike where you can pin the throttle wide open mid corner because the electronics will allow it , accelerating at a point where on a bike with no TC will send you skywards (Pedrosa crash) for a "old school rider", that's got to be a difficult switch

I assume moto2 has a similar electronic programing? If so Marquez's performances on the same machinery cannot be equally compared to Rossi because he has developed his riding style based on relying on electronics rather than just instinct.

[Millhouse]

He's a goofy faced clown that has lucked on to all the best bikes and when faced with an actual challenge at Ducati ran away with his tail between his legs.





















and no, i'm not serious. he's the goat.
/thread.

[mc101]

Your both right...

They need to be ridden differently to extract 100% from them.  Some riders can't adjust their style, technique to accommodate the differences of the platform in question.

[big gav]

So maybe the more recent advancements in technology prevent Rossi from winning these days ?

I do believe he is the goat. His record and attitude are second to none.

[Gobert]

Until the post Valencia 2010 test day even I could have been persuaded that he was...

Ago, Hailwood, Roberts Snr, Spencer, Rainey, Doohan, Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo - it's difficult to compare riders from different eras or riders who competed against each other at different times in their respective careers but even against that list, he's be near the very top.

[Evil636]

I've always been a Rossi fan and do think that he has earned his title from the ground up, like everyone knows the 125's, 500's etc were all the basic training and his foothold in the sport. Now he's on what has become his pedastle whereas the likes of Marquez are moulded into the new bikes where they have all the aids to start with so they learn with these. Put them on a standard road bike with no aids and say right race each other round this track and it would e clear who has ridden without aids. On the other hand I'm not dismissing that Marquez can ride, put any of us on his bike and I'm sure we would be in a different comfort zone so each side has a stake but it still doesn't defeat the title that Rossi is the goat.

[Gobert]

Marquez has only ridden with TC etc for this season - he did pretty well without them in 125 and Moto2.

[zxrob]

He is certainly the greatest "package" of all time, without question

Difficult to compare in different era's I know

Yes the media have "hyped" him up, thats what they like to do, just as they like to slate someone

He'll get my vote

Rob

[Coxy]

Dan - you are right.

[Gilby104]

He's the GOAT in my opinion. My view is obviously skewed because he is the superstar of my generation. But his achievements in terms of going across all the types of bikes adds to that GOAT claim. His personality and what he has done for the sport add further. I don't know (or can't think) of anyone that comes close in terms of the whole package.

I think others have shone as bright as him (or nearly as bright) in individual areas.... championship winning machines like Ago or Doohan, speed machines like Stoner, characters like Sheene? But noone that has done on the whole what he has done and for so long - I'm not sure there can be any question that he is the GOAT!

As for the bikes I don't know and will never know. What I do think is that generally the fastest rider / driver of their day would probably be the fastest on any machinery..... it's the transition that can mess things up. Even immortals like Rossi are going to have to find something extra to keep up with changes in machinery - especially against those that have been bred on the new kit. So in that sense the bike will be harder to ride for Rossi than the younger guys?

As for Gav's thoughts that the bikes are actually harder to ride I can only think that they are so good that to ride the last 0.5% needed to be faster than the rest is increasingly difficult. i.e. the line between being as fast as everyone else or alien fast is so large because the bike takes care of most of the 'going as fast as everyone else bit'? Also I guess they are much harder to set up properly? But just thinking out loud really.

[David W]

When Lorenzo was asked who the greatest was, Hailwood or Ago, he answered 'Valentino'....  I'll take his opinion as an expert one.

Dani at Aragon proved how much work the bike does these days.  On the 500's, the rider had to stop it doing that himself, on every corner, at every race.

Rossi isn't winning anymore because he's 34 years old.  And he lost two years at Ducati and probably ended up a worse rider than he started there.  If he was 5 or 6 years younger he'd be able to come back from it but he's just getting older.  And the Yamaha is struggling a bit this year too which obviously doesn't help.

[Gilby104]

Rossi isn't winning anymore because he's 34 years old.  And he lost two years at Ducati and probably ended up a worse rider than he started there.  If he was 5 or 6 years younger he'd be able to come back from it but he's just getting older.  And the Yamaha is struggling a bit this year too which obviously doesn't help.

+1... also, in comparison with Lorenzo (who was as fast as Rossi by the time Rossi broke his leg), Rossi has spent 2 years dicking around on a shit bike whilst Lorenzo has spent that time perfecting the ability to ride an entire race at inch perfect blistering pace getting better and better in my opinion. I think we have found out that Lorenzo has a bit more to give / risk now that Marquez has turned up but he's certainly spent the last 2 years riding perfecting the art of riding a bloody quick bike at 99.9% all race long.

Hard for Rossi at 34 to maintain his pace (which he might well have done?) but impossible surely for him to keep up with the development / adaptation of his own skills at the pace that Lorenzo (at perfect age and with near perfect machinery) will have been developing his!