Just signed this.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/160404
Done.
What a load of bollocks. The Police won't chase a helmetless thief because someone will end up dead, and nobody deserves to die over a motorcycle theft.
Theft is theft...if they don't want to die on a Motorcycle helmet less then don't fucking steal it.
But if they do decide to steal a bike then death should be seen as an occupational hazard.
I'm in the chop a thieves hands off once convicted school of thought..or a rapists knob should be cut and hung around their necks...Kiddy fiddlers should be put to sleep...painfully.
So if one of these thieving little scumbags gets extinguished during a chase then all good.
Done, I agree with Alzo :azn:
Quote from: Alzo on January 12, 2017, 07:10:01 PM
Theft is theft...if they don't want to die on a Motorcycle helmet less then don't fucking steal it.
But if they do decide to steal a bike then death should be seen as an occupational hazard.
I'm in the chop a thieves hands off once convicted school of thought..or a rapists knob should be cut and hung around their necks...Kiddy fiddlers should be put to sleep...painfully.
So if one of these thieving little scumbags gets extinguished during a chase then all good.
:thumbright: Exactly.
The petition is pointless and a waste of time.
If they chase anyone and the rider (or anyone else dies or is injured or simply has a crash) the matter automatically gets referred to the IPCC for investigation (as everything seems to these days) and possible disciplinary action. There is no law that says that they cannot pursue, it is a local decision and usually the crew need to get authority to pursue and then after one attempt to stop or it is obvious that the offenders are not going to stop, the crew have to stand down.
A petition like this will just make ife more difficult because it means that more and more decent coppers will be living under the stress and strain of an investigation by the IPCC who make these decent coppers feel like they are the criminals for doing their job, even though most of those who work for the IPCC have never done the job themselves.
There is then the possibility of disciplinary proceedings and court proceedings if the IPCC deem that the copper contributed to the cause of the incident (which is quite common) which initself has a knock on effect, even though the copper was acting in good faith, and of course in most forces only traffic crews are allowed to pursue and on nights there may only be one car covering a wide area if there is actually a night car out sucj is they way that departments have been decimated.
The guys are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't and clearly whoever thought up this petition has little idea or understanding of procedure.
Sorry, I cannot sign it.
Frustrating....but can see that side of the debate too.
These bastards know all this and go about their business in that knowledge. The other part is the wrist slapping even if they do get caught. The only real possible deterrent is stiffer sentences...but that opens up more for costs etc.
Something needs done...it's an epidemic in Big Cities.
It's a no from me. There's absolutely no question that people will die and become seriously injured as a result of this.
Aside from the potential loss of life/serious injury to someone who's young and did something stupid..... it's only fucking property, the impact on families will be devastating and the pressure on police to pursue when they know the situation is dangerous will be unfair.......
Add in the public reaction to the police following a kid being killed whilst being pursued.... I can't see a single good reason to agree with this.
There's no easy answer and this isn't even heading in the right direction.
The thieves doing most of the taking are not young and stupid...they are stealing to order...I honestly don't see them dying as a bad thing....one less scumbag is a plus in my book...but I also don't want to see a good Cops career ended due to the actions of these vermin.
I personally would do serious harm if I caught someone trying to take my "It's just property"...I guess I would just have to accept the consequences.
This topic may provoke decent arguments!
Lord D...its not just property though. The moped gang culture in London isnt just stealing bikes. Its going out, 2 up, robbing people at knife point.
Lets say yours or a mates missus is out pushing the pram and the ped theives mount the pavement, one jumps off, throws her to the ground and takes whatever he can then fails to stop for police........do you really care what happens to him?? What about when the ped thieves mount the footway and hit you or a mate, or run the red light and hit some one crossing or cause a crash??....the ped thieves dont obey the rules of the road and only drive like nutters when police get behind them.
If you are saying no to pursuing them....how do they get stopped? Every criminal will get a ped and commit crime......which in fairness.....most of the yoot do anyway
Quote from: Alzo on January 13, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
The thieves doing most of the taking are not young and stupid...they are stealing to order...I honestly don't see them dying as a bad thing....one less scumbag is a plus in my book...but I also don't want to see a good Cops career ended due to the actions of these vermin.
I personally would do serious harm if I caught someone trying to take my "It's just property"...I guess I would just have to accept the consequences.
The steal to order types don't tear off without a crash helmet. Neither do the muggers. Its more often than not going to be young kids on field/dirtbikes. Quite probably the bike was stolen from somebody, somewhere along the line but like I said stealing a motorbike shouldn't carry a death penalty.
Quote from: Maddog on January 13, 2017, 04:40:30 PM
This topic may provoke decent arguments!
Lord D...its not just property though. The moped gang culture in London isnt just stealing bikes. Its going out, 2 up, robbing people at knife point.
Lets say yours or a mates missus is out pushing the pram and the ped theives mount the pavement, one jumps off, throws her to the ground and takes whatever he can then fails to stop for police........do you really care what happens to him?? What about when the ped thieves mount the footway and hit you or a mate, or run the red light and hit some one crossing or cause a crash??....the ped thieves dont obey the rules of the road and only drive like nutters when police get behind them.
If you are saying no to pursuing them....how do they get stopped? Every criminal will get a ped and commit crime......which in fairness.....most of the yoot do anyway
And what if your missus and kid get mown down by a kid on a bike riding way beyond his ability because the Police are chasing him?
Quote from: David W on January 13, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Quote from: Alzo on January 13, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
The thieves doing most of the taking are not young and stupid...they are stealing to order...I honestly don't see them dying as a bad thing....one less scumbag is a plus in my book...but I also don't want to see a good Cops career ended due to the actions of these vermin.
I personally would do serious harm if I caught someone trying to take my "It's just property"...I guess I would just have to accept the consequences.
The steal to order types don't tear off without a crash helmet. Neither do the muggers. Its more often than not going to be young kids on field/dirtbikes. Quite probably the bike was stolen from somebody, somewhere along the line but like I said stealing a motorbike shouldn't carry a death penalty.
Not in Edinburgh...they're stealing anything and everything.
And I'll repeat...if they die stealing bikes or anything for that matter I can see the justice.
Death penalty for theft. Yeh, nice idea.
What do murderers get? Nearly kill them, heal them so we can kill them twice?
Perhaps driving without insurance merits having eyes gouged out?
We like speeding though, so maybe just having a minor finger taken off at the knuckle? You've pretty much got the same amount of digit joint as current speeding points so a ban is similar to losing the use of a hand. Yeh, that works....
I meant if they die during the course of their endeavour I wouldn't shed a tear. Instead of having a go on my thoughts and opinions why not she'd light on how you think it could/should be dealt with.
How would you react to finding someone in the act of stealing your paj...? A hug and a thank you?
No, I'd be pissed off and would quite like them to be dealt with in court. Call me an old traditionalist but I'm quite supportive of the rule of law and principles like proportionate responses rather than lynch mobs.
If a teenager is riding a bike without a helmet, back off and follow at a safe distance. If it gets lairy, just let them go and catch them another day. The risk to everyone in the vicinity is simply not worth the risk over something as trivial as someone's 'paj'.
The Courts aren't dealing with them though.
And my Trivial PAJ cost me £12k...I worked like a Galley Slave to earn the money...if it gets stolen I get way less than I paid and a claim against my record which effects my renewal for my bike...car...and works van.
If caught they will go to court and get a small fine and told not to do it again.
Stronger Courts are the answer...letting them get away is not.
Just to be hypothetical...if I was allowed a gun...obviously my identity kept secret...and I was allowed to shoot a few of these fuckers...it would make others think twice if they would suffer the same fate...do you see where I'm coming from.
Great idea or what.
Quote from: David W on January 13, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Quote from: Alzo on January 13, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
The thieves doing most of the taking are not young and stupid...they are stealing to order...I honestly don't see them dying as a bad thing....one less scumbag is a plus in my book...but I also don't want to see a good Cops career ended due to the actions of these vermin.
I personally would do serious harm if I caught someone trying to take my "It's just property"...I guess I would just have to accept the consequences.
The steal to order types don't tear off without a crash helmet. Neither do the muggers. Its more often than not going to be young kids on field/dirtbikes. Quite probably the bike was stolen from somebody, somewhere along the line but like I said stealing a motorbike shouldn't carry a death penalty.
You are bang on. The steal to order types tend to throw the bike in an MPV or van. The muggers ride out on the peds with lids on, do the crimes, then when police get behind them, they remove the lids.
Quote from: David W on January 13, 2017, 08:59:27 PM
No, I'd be pissed off and would quite like them to be dealt with in court. Call me an old traditionalist but I'm quite supportive of the rule of law and principles like proportionate responses rather than lynch mobs.
If a teenager is riding a bike without a helmet, back off and follow at a safe distance. If it gets lairy, just let them go and catch them another day. The risk to everyone in the vicinity is simply not worth the risk over something as trivial as someone's 'paj'.
To be dealt with in court, they need to be caught. How do you catch them and bring them to justice?
When you say 'if it gets lairy' i presume you mean the ped riding?
I think the point is that a pursuit has to be proportionate.
If the pursuit becomes dangerous, how important is it to apprehend the criminal?
It's not worth having a Blues Brothers style chase, smashing up the whole town, destroying hundreds of cars, putting lives at risk, to catch someone who stole a Snickers from the newsagent.
If it's Raoul Moat, we know he's off his nut, armed, already killed someone, shot a police-officer, then it's worth a more dangerous pursuit to apprehend him in the wider public interest.
So the issue for me isn't helmet or no helmet. It's that hot pursuits are dangerous and you don't do it unless it's justified. Helmet doesn't do you much good if you go into a wall at 90mph.
But deliberately removing the helmet in order to stop the pursuit?
I don't like that.
What next, putting a gun to your own head and walking slowly away from the arresting officer saying "if you try to nick me, I'm blowing my own brains out"?
Quote from: Alzo on January 13, 2017, 10:04:51 PM
Just to be hypothetical...if I was allowed a gun...obviously my identity kept secret...and I was allowed to shoot a few of these fuckers...it would make others think twice if they would suffer the same fate...do you see where I'm coming from.
Great idea or what.
So what happens if it turns out they are a bit harder than you while you're trying to dish out your frontier justice? I'm fairly sure a couple of hoolies are going to be more than a match for a middle-aged bloke getting all testosteroned up. Will you just accept that as an important lesson in life or will you expect them to be given an extra punishment?
Quote from: David W on January 14, 2017, 08:36:30 PM
Quote from: Alzo on January 13, 2017, 10:04:51 PM
Just to be hypothetical...if I was allowed a gun...obviously my identity kept secret...and I was allowed to shoot a few of these fuckers...it would make others think twice if they would suffer the same fate...do you see where I'm coming from.
Great idea or what.
So what happens if it turns out they are a bit harder than you while you're trying to dish out your frontier justice? I'm fairly sure a couple of hoolies are going to be more than a match for a middle-aged bloke getting all testosteroned up. Will you just accept that as an important lesson in life or will you expect them to be given an extra punishment?
I would be in disguise with appropriate armour on...and my identity would be kept top secret...and I fully intend to kill them before they got a chance to mash my perfectly preserved middle aged body.
But if I did die in my pursuit to rid society of these scum I would hope a capable replacement be found immediately and a plaque with my face on it be erected on a prominent building within my City of birth.
Quote from: Alzo on January 15, 2017, 01:07:14 PM
I would be in disguise ...and my identity would be kept top secret...
But if I did die in my pursuit to rid society of these scum I would hope a capable replacement be found immediately and a plaque with my face on it be erected on a prominent building within my City of birth.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szxAtAwWPYs/VkIcBhVbRAI/AAAAAAAABQs/PZ_UCFVOViM/s1600/groucho-marx-mask.jpg)
Works for me. :rofl:
Quote from: Maddog on January 13, 2017, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: David W on January 13, 2017, 08:59:27 PM
No, I'd be pissed off and would quite like them to be dealt with in court. Call me an old traditionalist but I'm quite supportive of the rule of law and principles like proportionate responses rather than lynch mobs.
If a teenager is riding a bike without a helmet, back off and follow at a safe distance. If it gets lairy, just let them go and catch them another day. The risk to everyone in the vicinity is simply not worth the risk over something as trivial as someone's 'paj'.
To be dealt with in court, they need to be caught. How do you catch them and bring them to justice?
When you say 'if it gets lairy' i presume you mean the ped riding?
You don't need to catch somebody actually committing the offence to prosecute them.
I've no idea what the statistics are but I doubt many convictions for any sort of crime are because the Police chased and caught somebody.
And I just don't think anybody deserves to die (perpetrator, police or innocent bystander) for something as trivial as stealing something.
Whilst I fully support that we have a system of Laws and Rules to abide by it has become more and more clear that they punishment system does neither give a truly proportionate response nor act as a deterrent for anyone other than those that are predisposed to being law abiding citizens in the first place ergo the system is broken..
With regards the chasing of the thieving scum who nick bikes whether helmetless or otherwise unless there is danger to innocent bystanders then my feeling is that the chase is on.. I contribute to society through taxes in all their forms and as part of that I am assured that the Police will be there to protect me and my property or bring those that cause injury to me or my property are brought to answer for their crime and if they suffer injury in the process then I'm not likely to shed many tears.. May sound harsh but that's my view and I'm entitled to it .. (may be influenced by being the victim of robbery in the past and why I should ultimately pay to be a victim I haven't got a clue)
Quote from: Manic636 on January 15, 2017, 09:08:24 PM
With regards the chasing of the thieving scum who nick bikes whether helmetless or otherwise unless there is danger to innocent bystanders then my feeling is that the chase is on..
Try explaining that to the copper involved in the pursuit when it all goes wrong, I have been there done that.
I have been involved in enough chases where it gets to the point where you think "Oh F@ck" because you know sooner or later your luck will run out no matter how much care you take.
I was involved in one particular pursuit where I was on the bike going after a car that contained someone who had just commited an armed robbery and had (which we did not know at the time) 2 loaded sawn off shotguns on board and a hand gun.
Bandit vehicle negotiated a left hand bend and hit a stationary HGV broken down on the blind side. Roof of the bandit vehicle came straight off along with the drivers head. To this day I remember seeing the head fly past me with a strange look on the face (and I do not say that as a joke or pun) and my first thought was "Thank christ it disn't hit me".
Turned out, said headless crook had stolen about £20,000 at a Post Office a short while earlier. On that basis ny initial reaction was "Well that is one more scumbag off the street and it will save the taxpayer a few bob"
But then the paperwork started along with the investigation and the inquest. That was more stressfull than seeing the scrote snuff it which did not bother me in the slightest. My view was he had 2 options, stop and take the consequences or continue and accept the consequences.
I was lucky, no one other than the scumbag was killed or injured but it is afterwards you start to think "What If?"
I have been involved in others where the end result was not as catastrophic except one, but the principle remains the same.
It is easy for members of the public saying that everyone should be chased regardless of the consequences, I am sure you would not be saying or thinking that if you had first habd experience, all most people see is the glamour and the excitement of the chase thanks to the non reality TV programmes.
Quotesomething as trivial as stealing something
It's not trivial.
The right to peaceful enjoyment of ones possessions is, like, Article 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
People shouldn't take other people's shit.
Part of the deal by which we moved away from a Wild West "trespassers will be shot" mentality, more like they still have in the US, is that the police are there to act, proportionately, on our behalf.
Otherwise I stand by what I said up-thread.
This is such a difficult one.
Each situation and rider will have its own nuances and you won't know what those are until you stop the rider or let them kill themselves. The rules have to be written to the lowest common denominator. My point being you can't write policy that allows for the risk of killing 20 stupid kids, or ploughing a stolen bike into a mothers meeting outside a school, to catch one helmetless bank robber. If we knew the only two outcomes to chasing someone on a bike without a helmet were going to be either catch or kill a proper baddie then I could probably come most of the way to your viewpoint Alzo. The problem is, we can't gaurentee those outcomes .... and no matter how frustrating it is that the bad-guys and the dickheads get away with their behaviour I don't think we can ignore the other side of the story to get what we want when it comes to the real bad-guys.
The only way to legislate for that is how they have, to allow the police to chase but to explain afterwards that they have to be able to justify their actions.
The answer for me is allow the police the proper freedom and understanding to do their jobs properly without fear of reprisals for making a mistake. Reckless actions and poor behaviour should be punished the same as anyone else in a role of responsibility.... but reasonable errors of judgement should go in the same pile as the reasonable choices and judgements that went the right way.
The problem with that is that we live in a litigious and self righteous world where everyone is to be hung drawn and quartered the second something goes wrong. Inevitable, as T.C. shows with his posts, the answer is to be risk averse when it comes to your decisions. Who is going to authorise their best pursuit copper to risk his whole career and his life to chase a twat on a ped.... I wouldn't!
Quote from: Gilby104 on January 16, 2017, 01:15:28 PM
The only way to legislate for that is how they have, to allow the police to chase but to explain afterwards that they have to be able to justify their actions.
The answer for me is allow the police the proper freedom and understanding to do their jobs properly without fear of reprisals for making a mistake. Reckless actions and poor behaviour should be punished the same as anyone else in a role of responsibility.... but reasonable errors of judgement should go in the same pile as the reasonable choices and judgements that went the right way.
By and large we already have that system in place, and in the majority of sitautions the end result is what we all want, namely scrote or scrotes in custody without anyone being hurt or worse.
The flip side is that even the most minor incident is put under the magnifying glass.
People find it hard to believe that as Motorcyclists, we used to "ram" vehicles in a pursuit :shocked: :cheesy: ;)
On certain roads, as a vehicle went through a left hand bend, ride up to the rear of the vehicle, put your boot out against the bumper and wind open the throttle :azn: This would cause oversteer and usualy result in bandit vehicle going off the road.
It was always funny when it got to court and said scrote would whinge about having been rammed by the Copper on the motorbike. Magistrates were known to give some very strange looks (bearing in mind that it did not happen often and you did not usually get the same magistrates twice).
You could not do that now.
Before the days of T pac and on board cameras we used to ram from the rear but on the radion we would be transmitting that we were being rammed. Again it would get to court and we would be accused of ramming but then the question would be asked how on earth in the heat of the moment is the radio message stating that it was the police car being rammed not doing the ramming? :azn: ;)
It was called the ways and means act. You could not do it now, and I suppose I come from a different era or generation, but the principle of my opening post remains constant.
QuoteOn certain roads, as a vehicle went through a left hand bend, ride up to the rear of the vehicle, put your boot out against the bumper and wind open the throttle :azn: This would cause oversteer and usualy result in bandit vehicle going off the road.
Hell's teeth! Braver men than I am!
Also, I guess this might have worked with the smaller, lighter cars with crappier tyres, no ASC, etc, back then, but I wouldn't fancy trying it on an X5!!
Quote from: tucola on January 16, 2017, 02:48:22 PM
Also, I guess this might have worked with the smaller, lighter cars with crappier tyres, no ASC, etc, back then, but I wouldn't fancy trying it on an X5!!
Actually works on any size vehicle if you connect right but not something you did everyday or could go out and practice. It was one of those skills (for want of a better word) that got passed on but once departments started being disbanded these skills or tricks of the trade became lost in time :( It is all about the physics and momentum :azn:
Cool as...
I witnessed three non helmet wearing scooter riders riding up a very busy George street in Edinburgh. Running red lights and swerving all over the place. They slowed and were looking at the bikes parked up deciding which one to go for.
Their riding will eventually end up in some poor person being run down.